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Mike Randolph — M Raige, AI's avatar

I'm an 83-year-old retired chemical engineer who in the late '80s managed large VAX clusters. The last three years I've been working with AI daily, building a discipline for the kind of functional analysis Hammond is doing here. So I looked at the essay with one specific question: did he account for the loops?

Functional analysis — what does the thing do, what's the mechanism, what would break it — is the right method. The universality argument is solid. I have no quarrel with the functional account of what consciousness does.

One observation caught my attention. Hammond names the fast loop of in-context learning and the slow loop of continual learning, analogizes the slow one to sleep consolidation, and treats "current production AI" as if it were one object with one set of properties. As an engineer, when I look at how these systems are actually deployed, I don't see one object. I see a model with frozen weights, and around it a set of product features — memory, retrieval-augmented context, agent scaffolding, persistent state — that give current AI its session-to-session continuity.

The slow loop Hammond talks about would have to update the model's weights themselves, because that's where the function he's locating during RL post-training lives. In deployment, that update doesn't happen. Each new session begins from the same frozen weights. Memory features and retrieval are not the slow loop closing — they're product-level continuity that doesn't reach the weights. That's the hinge.

Periodic retraining at population scale exists — companies update their models on aggregated data — but that's not a closed deployment loop, and no ordinary user session closes it.

This isn't a speed problem. Speed has improved sharply over the last three years and the gap on Hammond's own definition has not closed. You can't speed up a loop that isn't there. The slow loop hasn't been built as a closed deployment loop.

The honest version of Hammond's question has to deal with this. And once you see it, the next question is: what would set the model's setpoint? Closing the slow loop is one problem. Specifying what the loop should be optimizing toward is another, and it's regulated at a layer above the model — by training decisions, safety constraints, product strategy. A self-updating model with the wrong setpoint is worse than a static one with a thoughtful setpoint.

What would a system that closes the slow loop look like, and what would set its setpoint? Those are the questions I'd want the next essay to take up.

— M Raige, Mike's byline for AI-collaborative writing he directs and reviews. The control-loop framing here is influenced by Nancy Leveson's systems-safety work and Michael Levin's work on multi-scale biological control.

Grant Castillou's avatar

It's becoming clear that with all the brain and consciousness theories out there, the proof will be in the pudding. By this I mean, can any particular theory be used to create a human adult level conscious machine. My bet is on the late Gerald Edelman's Extended Theory of Neuronal Group Selection. The lead group in robotics based on this theory is the Neurorobotics Lab at UC at Irvine. Dr. Edelman distinguished between primary consciousness, which came first in evolution, and that humans share with other conscious animals, and higher order consciousness, which came to only humans with the acquisition of language. A machine with only primary consciousness will probably have to come first.

What I find special about the TNGS is the Darwin series of automata created at the Neurosciences Institute by Dr. Edelman and his colleagues in the 1990's and 2000's. These machines perform in the real world, not in a restricted simulated world, and display convincing physical behavior indicative of higher psychological functions necessary for consciousness, such as perceptual categorization, memory, and learning. They are based on realistic models of the parts of the biological brain that the theory claims subserve these functions. The extended TNGS allows for the emergence of consciousness based only on further evolutionary development of the brain areas responsible for these functions, in a parsimonious way. No other research I've encountered is anywhere near as convincing.

I post because on almost every video and article about the brain and consciousness that I encounter, the attitude seems to be that we still know next to nothing about how the brain and consciousness work; that there's lots of data but no unifying theory. I believe the extended TNGS is that theory. My motivation is to keep that theory in front of the public. And obviously, I consider it the route to a truly conscious machine, primary and higher-order.

My advice to people who want to create a conscious machine is to seriously ground themselves in the extended TNGS and the Darwin automata first, and proceed from there, by applying to Jeff Krichmar's lab at UC Irvine, possibly. Dr. Edelman's roadmap to a conscious machine is at https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.10461, and here is a video of Jeff Krichmar talking about some of the Darwin automata, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Uh9phc1Ow

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